sir82... I think you're probably right. Now looking back, it seems the nineties were a turning point altogether. Factor in Franz's death, the UN NGO relationship, the king of the north (USSR) was no more, the 1995 generation change, plus the end of the 20th century (which was a benchmark where many figured the end would arrive before the end of the century). There were many changes on the world scene as well as in the organization that does seem to be a watershed dividing the earlier JW zealots from the shallow automatons in the congregation today.
Darth Rutherford
JoinedPosts by Darth Rutherford
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134
Who left or got stumbled over the 1995 generation thing?
by Julia Orwell inor the 2000's generation thing?.
how did you feel?
how did it help you wake up?
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134
Who left or got stumbled over the 1995 generation thing?
by Julia Orwell inor the 2000's generation thing?.
how did you feel?
how did it help you wake up?
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Darth Rutherford
I was in my early twenties at the time. Although I was a born-in, I really became serious about the truth in the late 80's, so this was really the first major revision that I personally experienced (any earlier revisions would have just been new information to me). I was excited to learn it, and I obediently changed my thinking. However... I remember thinking how could the "old" teaching have lasted for decades if it was incorrect? Also, I noticed the fact that both the "new" teaching (at that time) had scriptural backing just as much as the "old" teaching had. That puzzled me as well. But I was faithful.
I can't say I was "stumbled", maybe I was... but it certainly added to my early cognitive dissonance. If anything, the 1995 update laid the foundation for the later changes. When the generation changed again in 2008 to be the anointed, I started asking some hard questions that made people uncomfortable. I quickly backed down realizing I was playing with fire, but the damage was done in my mind. I realized I had taught an untruth for 13 years and that bothered me. Finally, when it changed again to the overlapping-generation in 2010, all the bells and whistles in my head went off. The BS indicator pegged out.
By this time, I had just completed one personal project on the blood doctrine using just the Bible -and realized the organization was scripturally wrong. I was looking for another project, so I chose the "generation". It was stuck in my craw. If overlapping generations was the best the GB could come up with, I figured I had as good, if not better, a chance to figuring it out myself. I did a detailed verse by verse study of Matthew 24 and Luke 21. It was then that I discovered Luke 21:8. After thoroughly studying that verse, it all made sense... the organization was a false prophet... no wonder they couldn't get their stories right. God was letting them hang themselves.
I write all this to show that although one particular teaching may not be the breaking point for all, it can lay the groundwork for changes that will definitely come later down the road. That's what happened to me. I envy you who realized the 1995 teaching was wrong. Although I didn't see how obvious it was, it nevertheless did have an impact on me -subtle, but it was there. It proved to be a chink in my armor that wasn't exploited until the teaching changed again. Now it's obvious to me.
And so... the teachings right now that are changing, like who the F&DS is, although obvious to us, may not be the breaking point to some, but they do have an impact that may not manifest itself for several more years. I love the July 15 2013 Watchtower! We couldn't have done a better job ourselves! Trust me, if people aren't leaving over these changes right now... I promise you that they will in the future. And that makes me smile.
Honestly, the organization writes the best apostate literature.
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Sad Discussion Regarding Beards
by turtleturtle inso both my wife and i are awake to ttatt.
we are still active, patiently waiting for the org to implode.
being active, it is evident this is happening as a quickening.. we were having a discussion regarding shaving & beards.
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Darth Rutherford
I've grown a beard and love it! I get so many compliments on it too. Had a few women threathen me NOT to shave it!
Yeah, you'll be judged by the dubs... but, they ALREADY judge you (and everyone else) for anything you are or are not doing. I once told a JW friend: if the hair on my face stumbles you, then you weren't much of a Christian to begin with. He agreed.
Life is short man... if you want to grow it, DO IT! So, don't go to your grave with a beard as a regret... now THAT would be sad!
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What do you think a witness would say when shown this quote?
by BU2B inwhat do you think a witness would say when shown this quote, then the proof of the 1914, 1925 predictions?.
"true, there have been those in times past who predicted an "end to the world," even announcing a specific date.
yet nothing happened.
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Darth Rutherford
I've also heard the excuse that they won't acknowledge older publications... 'truth has changed since then'... 'we don't believe that way anymore'... etc, etc.
When that happens, I like to use Matthew 7:26,27: “Furthermore, everyone hearing these sayings of mine and not doing them will be likened to a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand. And the rain poured down and the floods came and the winds blew and struck against that house and it caved in, and its collapse was great.”
The point: How important is a house's foundation? Should the foundation be ignored when living in a house? Of course not! The foundation will determine the longevity and strength of the structure. In fact, Jesus says a house built upon a foundation of shifting sand is not strong. Likewise, we cannot ignore the foundation of the organization. If the organization was built upon a foundation of truths that have since shifted like sand, then what does Jesus say will eventually happen to it? Would you trust a house built upon sand? How, then, can we trust the organization?
It makes them think...
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30
What to Say When a Witness Comes to Your Door
by Darth Rutherford injw: yes thats right.. me: good!
jw: yes, thats true.. me: good.
jw: yes, sure do.. me: tell me, john, what would you do if jesus christ told you that you shouldnt follow jehovahs witnesses?.
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Darth Rutherford
Love the video idea! I'll investigate that... need to find me a couple of actors.
I know what some of you mean... my initial temptation, too, is to tell a JW to get lost. But, we all know that if they go back to their vehicle feeling like they were persecuted, it just reaffirms their faith.
However, if we take a few minutes to ask the right questions and show them a scripture that exposes the organization as a false prophet not to be followed, then they go back to their vehicle a totally different person. That's what I personally want to do. Being liberated from the organization and its belief system is such a blessing. I want others to experience that as well. Also, when you consider that the organization gets evermore weaker with every person they lose who learns the truth about 'the truth', I believe it's worth taking five minutes to ask them a few questions and show them a pivotal scripture like Luke 21:8.
Also... like scary21 said... it's fun to watch them squirm!
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What to Say When a Witness Comes to Your Door
by Darth Rutherford injw: yes thats right.. me: good!
jw: yes, thats true.. me: good.
jw: yes, sure do.. me: tell me, john, what would you do if jesus christ told you that you shouldnt follow jehovahs witnesses?.
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Darth Rutherford
ssn587… wow! What a great experience! Although there are so many scriptures that can be used to show the organization isn’t correct, IMO Luke 21:8 is one of the most powerful verses I’ve found. The fact that you could hear a pin drop in a van full of psyched-up JWs out in FS testifies to the verse’s power. Undoubtedly it had an effect – and I bet it still haunts the dubs who haven't left yet.
Crazyguy… Absolutely! It has a big effect on new ones, but also on older ones too. I’m a 3 rd gener. I totally bought into it -drank the koolaid... hardcore. I served as an elder for years. Though I saw and knew many things that didn’t add up, I’d loyally push it all to the dark corners of my mind out of sight because the org just had to be true. However, when I read this verse, it all came crashing down. There was no denial anymore – no ignoring the facts. I had to make a choice: either the organization or Jesus Christ, because there's no way Jehovah and Jesus would use an organization that identically matches the ones Jesus said to avoid. This is a powerful verse – and very effective even on those who have been in the org all their lives.
clarity… thanks! I hope you get an opportunity to give a try... you won't regret it!
Phizzy… LOL, thanks for the good mark on my counsel sheet. Breathing was always something I had to keep working on (and I was the TMSchool Overseer)!
You are right, it all adds up to a breaking point. Cognitive dissonance won't last forever. Even if Luke 21:8 isn’t the proverbial straw that breaks the camel’s back, it certainly is a heavy load that can't be ignored. If a person doesn’t wake up immediately (like I did), it stays nestled in the recesses of their mind. They’ll eventually wake up.
If you get a chance to use this verse... please share your experiences. Newbies and Lurkers... if this verse had an impact on you, share your experience as well. We'd love to hear from you!
Everyone have a great day!
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What to Say When a Witness Comes to Your Door
by Darth Rutherford injw: yes thats right.. me: good!
jw: yes, thats true.. me: good.
jw: yes, sure do.. me: tell me, john, what would you do if jesus christ told you that you shouldnt follow jehovahs witnesses?.
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Darth Rutherford
Thanks all. This is just a demo. I tried to make it a little realistic by throwing in a couple counterpoints by the Witness. I tried to think of a realistic reply by a Witness - maybe something I would have said. Anyway... yeah, it seems long, but don't let that be discouraging. This is just a simulated discussion... obviously they're not going to follow this script, right?
Sometimes we get a little frazzled when we see a Witness. Some of us get nervous, shaky, or even angry. These are all normal reactions depending upon our experiences with the WT. However, let's be confident that truth is on our side. We know the truth about the truth. We know more about their organization than they do!
So, relax, and just keep it simple. Smile a lot. Stay focused. No matter what the Witness says, we need to get him/her to agree to three things:
(1) they come on the basis of Jesus' name,
(2) that the organization professes to be God's "chosen", "anointed" people -the ones we must follow for salvation, and
(3) that the "due time has approached".
Once you get them to agree to those three points, show them Luke 21:8. At that point, it's over. Checkmate.
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What to Say When a Witness Comes to Your Door
by Darth Rutherford injw: yes thats right.. me: good!
jw: yes, thats true.. me: good.
jw: yes, sure do.. me: tell me, john, what would you do if jesus christ told you that you shouldnt follow jehovahs witnesses?.
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Darth Rutherford
Point taken Blondie. This represents about a five minute or so conversation. As long as you keep the questions short and stay in control, they'll follow along if they think they're helping you. I've known witnesses who've stood on a doorstep for half an hour or more because they thought they were getting somewhere with it.
Sure, some of the language could be masked to hide the ex-JW earmarks. The point is to get them to agree to the points of Luke 21:8 before you show them the scripture. It is priceless when they read that verse and just sit and stare. Cognitive dissonance at work!
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What to Say When a Witness Comes to Your Door
by Darth Rutherford injw: yes thats right.. me: good!
jw: yes, thats true.. me: good.
jw: yes, sure do.. me: tell me, john, what would you do if jesus christ told you that you shouldnt follow jehovahs witnesses?.
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Darth Rutherford
Ok... this is a fictitious demonstration illustrating how we can help a Witness who comes to our door. (Hey, the Witnesses come up with fictitious demonstrations during the Service Meeting all the time.) I just want to illustrate that with a little preparation, we can have a successful discussion with a Witness if they should knock on our door one Saturday morning. This works my friends. I've done it informally already.
JW: Good morning, my name is John and I’m working with a group of Christians this morning sharing a thought from the Bible. What is your name?
Me: My name is [your name]. Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?
JW: Yes! We sure are.
Me: Great! You know, I admire your commitment to this work. I know some Witnesses, and for the most part, they’re nice people. They’re very sincere in their beliefs.
JW: Thank you.
Me: Are you here presenting the latest issues of your magazines?
JW: Yeah, we are. [Shows the magazines]
Me: Great! Can I have them?
JW: Absolutely! [Hands them to me]
Me: Listen, I know you probably are busy this morning trying to cover a lot of ground, but do you have time for a couple of questions I have?
JW: [Smiling] Yeah! We have time.
Me: Good! It’s just a few questions, and I’ve been hoping for a long time some Witnesses would drop by so I could ask them. I don’t think they’re difficult questions, but I want to know what you all believe.
JW: Great! We’re happy to answer your questions. I’ll do my best to give you a Bible-based answer, and, if I don’t know the answer, I’ll look it up and come back later so we can talk about it.
Me: Super! First, do you all believe in Jesus Christ?
JW: Absolutely! We believe he is the Son of God.
Me: That’s good. Do you believe he’s the Christ?
JW: We sure do! The Bible is very clear on that subject.
Me: Yes it is. I’m glad to hear you believe that. Do you know what the word “Christ” means?
JW: [Thinks for a second.] I believe it means “chosen one” or “promised one”.
Me: Well, it actually means “Anointed One”. Both the words ‘Christ’ and ‘Messiah’ mean “Anointed One”.
JW: That’s right.
Me: So Jesus was the Christ because he was anointed by God –chosen to lead His people. Right?
JW: Yes that’s right.
Me: Good! So far we’re in agreement. In fact, did you know that others who were anointed by God carried the same title? For instance, when Aaron was anointed as high priest, he was referred to as “the anointed one”. The Bible actually uses the Hebrew and Greek words for ‘christ’ to describe him. Kings and prophets who were also anointed carried the same title.
JW: [Looking a little perplexed.] Ok, I might need to do some research on that.
Me: Sure. But you agree that the word ‘Christ’ is really a title used for anyone that God anoints, or chooses, to lead his people. Right?
JW: Yes, that’s true.
Me: Good. Now, there’s an account in the Bible –I believe it’s at Matthew 18:4 that we have to humble ourselves like a young child, and if we receive such a person on the basis of Jesus' name, then Jesus will receive us too.
JW: [A little more confident.] Yeah, that’s right!
Me: So, do you believe that if we’re to be an acceptable Christian, we need to act on the basis of Jesus’ name?
JW: Yes, we believe that.
Me: Acting on the basis of Jesus’ name doesn’t mean we are claiming to be Jesus, but that we recognize his authority over our actions, right?
JW: That’s correct.
Me: So, John, do you come to my door this morning on the basis of Jesus’ name?
JW: Yes, we do.
Me: All Jehovah’s Witnesses do too?
JW: Yes, we all are engaged in a worldwide preaching work just like Jesus told us to do. We believe we couldn’t do this without Jesus’ help.
Me: You know Jesus gave a sign about his return in the books of Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Are you familiar with that sign?
JW: Yes, in fact the preaching work we’re engaged in is at Matthew 24:14.
Me: And that sign is also in Mark 13 and Luke 21.
JW: That’s right!
Me: Do you believe the due time for that sign to be fulfilled has approached?
JW: Yes, we do. Part of our preaching work is helping people appreciate that we’re living in the Last Days.
Me: Ok! So, just to make sure I understand everything we’ve covered, you come to people’s door on the basis of Jesus’ name and you believe that the due time has approached for his sign to be fulfilled, right?
JW: That’s right.
Me: Well, that was easy!
JW: [Looking relieved and smiling.] Great!
Me: Can I ask you another question?
JW: [Confident] Sure!
Me: Do you believe your religion is the true religion?
JW: [Pauses] Yes, we believe we teach the truth of the Bible.
Me: Do you believe God specifically chose your religion out of all the other religions on earth to be his chosen people who will survive the end of this wicked world?
JW: [Pauses] Well, we don’t believe you’re ‘once saved, always saved’.
Me: No, that’s not what I’m asking. Do you believe God chose Jehovah’s Witnesses –the Watch Tower organization to be His people -the true religion?
JW: [Nervous] Yes, we do.
Me: And I need to follow you if I want to survive God’s judgment at Armageddon?
JW: Well we’re not the judges, we’re just the witnesses.
Me: So if I don’t follow your religion, will I survive Armageddon?
JW: That’s up to God.
Me: Then why do you follow this religion?
JW: Because I believe it’s the truth.
Me: If you follow that truth, do you hope you’ll survive Armageddon?
JW: Yes.
Me: And if you leave that religion, will you survive?
JW: If I leave the truth of God’s Word, I probably won’t make it.
Me: Then I need to follow the truth that you’ve come to my door with, right… if I want to make it?
JW: Yes.
Me: I mean, that's why you're here, right? [Smiling]
JW: [Smiling] Right.
Me: Ok. That wasn’t so hard, was it? God chose your religion out of all other religions to be the truth, and you want me to study, be baptized, and follow your religion so I can survive the end of this world. Right?
JW: Yes, that right.
Me: And the governing body of your religion was chosen by God to disseminate that truth, right?
JW: [Nods and shrugs.] Yes.
Me: Ok. One last question. You have your Bible there, turn to Luke 21 please. This is the sign Jesus gave about his return.
JW: Ok. [Starts to flip through the pages]
Me: Now you do believe that this chapter applies to our day and time, right?
JW: Yes, sure do.
Me: Tell me, John, what would you do if Jesus Christ told you that you shouldn’t follow Jehovah’s Witnesses?
JW: He wouldn’t do that.
Me: But let’s just say for the sake of argument that he did. He told you that your religion is not correct and you shouldn’t follow it, what would you do? I mean, you’ve come to my door on the basis of his name telling me that I shouldn’t follow my religion –that I should follow yours, right? Put yourself in my shoes, what would YOU do if Jesus told you to leave YOUR religion?
JW: Well, if Jesus told me, then I guess I’d leave it.
Me: You would? You’d leave knowing you’d be kicked out and shunned by your family and friends? You’d lose all the association that you have. Just like the apostles, you’d follow Christ knowing you’d be kicked out of the temple and shunned by everyone who was loyal to the Pharisees?
JW: It would be hard, but yes I would.
Me: But it would be worth it, wouldn't it?
JW: [Smiling] Yes it would.
Me: And Jesus said it wouldn’t be easy, right?
JW: Right.
Me: Ok, take a look at verse 8 in chapter 21 of Luke.
JW: Ok.
Me: Do you mind reading it?
JW: Ok. “He said, ‘Look out that you are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time has approached.’ Do not go after them.”
Me: So Jesus says that people will come on the basis of his name just like you, saying that they are 'He', the ones chosen by God –anointed just like Christ –to lead His people in this time because the due time for Jesus’ prophecy has approached.
JW: [Still studying the verse]
Me: John, everything you told me about your beliefs is summed up in that one verse.
JW: But it says they would come saying they are Jesus. We don’t do that.
Me: Well, hold your place there and turn to the parallel account at Matthew 24:5. [Turns to scripture] Note that it says that people will come on the basis of his name saying, “I am the Christ.”
JW: That’s right…
Me: And you agreed that the word ‘Christ’ is a title given to those who are anointed by God –chosen to lead His people, didn’t you?
JW: Well, yes.
Me: Has your religion been chosen by God in this time of the end?
JW: Yes…
Me: Is your Governing Body anointed by God?
JW: Yes…
Me: Are they claiming that they’ll one day be anointed kings just like Christ is?
JW: Yes…
Me: In fact, they will rule alongside Christ, right?
JW: Right.
Me: And I need to follow them in order to survive this system, right?
JW: Yes.
Me: So, they are in essence claiming to be “He” -the ones anointed by God just like Christ was -chosen to lead His people in these Last Days because the appointed time is due. Right?
JW: [Stands silently]
Me: John, Jesus is telling you that anyone who comes matching this sign are those we shouldn’t follow. He’s telling you, John, that you are being misled. I’m not telling you this –Jesus is.
JW: I’m going to have to study on this a little more.
Me: Absolutely. I hope you do. You need to look back on the history of your organization from its start to see how it keeps changing what ‘truth’ is over the last hundred and thirty years. Listen, I know you are a good man doing a powerful work, but Jesus said there would be ones prophesying in his name, and expelling demons in his name, and performing powerful works in his name, just like Jehovah’s Witnesses are doing, but he would tell them to get away from him. Right?
JW: Yeah.
Me: He wouldn’t claim them, right?
JW: I better go.
Me: Ok. John, it's been good meeting you. Study on this verse -it's very important.
JW: Ok, I will.
Me: And thanks for the magazines. Will you be coming back for a return visit?
JW: [Pauses and stares at me.] Yeah. When would be a good time?
Me: How about this time next week?
JW: Sure. Ok.
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For All Jehovah's Witnesses: When did Jesus begin ruling as King?
by Darth Rutherford into all jehovah's witnesses, here is an easy question you can answer... when did jesus begin ruling as king?.
watch tower answers:.
following his resurrection, jesus ascended to heaven and waited at gods right hand until 1914 to begin ruling as king.
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Darth Rutherford
Nice to hear from you blondie. Great references. Really shows how the WT flounders in the dark trying to adhere to their outdated doctrine. And, I guess everytime Jesus completes a new assignment, he is taking another throne. Hmmmmm, just how many thrones does he have to sit on before he finally wraps things up? It's nuts.
AnnOMaly... great scripture and another wonderful "field service" point. Love it! WT teaches that the "anointed kings" will assist Jesus in ruling over the earth, but you show us they'll be doing what Jesus began doing in the first century: ruling over the earth.
Crazyguy... I hear you. How do we reconcile the notion that Jesus will rule the earth at a later time period with the scripture Ann used at Revelation 3:21 and Paul's words at Ephesians 1:20,21 where Jesus is above all earthly governments in the current system of things.
Here's another thought: At Philippians 2:9-11, God "exalted" (past tense) Jesus to a superior position and "gave him the name that is above every other name so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those ON EARTH and those under the ground..." Think about this: God gave Jesus a single name. He didn't give him a name to represent his kingship over heaven, then another name later that would represent his kingship over the earth. This single name represented his authority over heaven and earth. One name... one rulership. Therefore, if in the first century he was ruling heaven with this given "name", then this name gave him authority over earth as well.
That would be like saying the nation elected a man to become President, but he can only serve as Commander in Chief over half the states at the moment, and the other half later in time. Doesn't the name "President" give him authority over all the states at the same time. So it is with the name Jesus was given. That title he was given gave him authority over heaven and earth in the first century.
Thanks for the feedback... I can't wait to watch a Witness' head spin when I show him these scriptures!